CMCDCHI Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 I recently asked my techs not to use arrows for repeating information on forms. Most have complied, but I was challenged by one tech. I'm having trouble finding a specific resource that says not to use arrows. Can anyone point me in the right direction? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodchild Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 CMC if you ever find out either way, will you post the reference for the rest of us?I've been curious of that as well. We've been using the lines/arrows for years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle Eye Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 No. we do not use the arrow and it is in the policy. Staff must comply with the policy. We allow it on one form and we have indicated on the form that Ok to use the arrow here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbostock Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 One inspector we had once called it "the line of death". And then cited us for it, using a regulation about keeping legible/accurate records. Dr. Pepper 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Pepper Posted September 11, 2014 Share Posted September 11, 2014 Are ditto marks then the "little marks of death"? (I like the line by the way, Terri). And, individual inspectorial preferences aside, it's a good question if there is a hard standard on the use of arrows/dittos or not. We did had this same issue on a pre-computerized form (crossmatch logbook - think writing the same guy's name etc 50 times during his ruptured AAA) and an inspector suggested using a sharpie to block off a box of entries on the form, and have procedure state that the one date, name, MR# or whatever was for all the data in the box. No one ever took issue with that afterwards. tbostock 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BankerGirl Posted September 11, 2014 Share Posted September 11, 2014 We did had this same issue on a pre-computerized form (crossmatch logbook - think writing the same guy's name etc 50 times during his ruptured AAA) and an inspector suggested using a sharpie to block off a box of entries on the form, and have procedure state that the one date, name, MR# or whatever was for all the data in the box. No one ever took issue with that afterwards.So how is this better than arrows or a line? I had an inspector cite me for use of these years ago, but don't remember the standard cited anymore. We try to avoid it, but as you said, when issuing 50+ products for a rupture AAA, most people balk at writing the name that much. Dr. Pepper 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Pepper Posted September 11, 2014 Share Posted September 11, 2014 After I posted the above, I was half tempted to go back and edit it to say what you just said, because I agree completely, I don't think it's really any different. I'm just passing on what the guy said (maybe because that's what they did in HIS lab), and that's why I asked if anyone had a black and white standard for this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolyn swickard Posted September 11, 2014 Share Posted September 11, 2014 Is it an FDA regualtion? i know they won't allow any lines, arrows, dittos, whiteout, etc. Our blood supplier had to resubmit everything for their irradiator validation because they had used arrows and we can't use them in our irradiation log which is inspected by the FDA. Would that make it cGMP standards? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Saikin Posted September 11, 2014 Share Posted September 11, 2014 You should define such usage or non-usage in a documents/records policy. If you say it is ok then it should be - you could fight a citation by stating it is approved policy. I don't think there is any regulation prohibiting it. I do know that the Feds do not care for the arrows, but they will accept the " " " if it is in policy. AuntiS 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pstruik Posted September 11, 2014 Share Posted September 11, 2014 There is a certain delicious irony in a - very sensible - question about the non-use of arrows asking people to point you in the right direction ... AuntiS, albaugh, Malcolm Needs and 6 others 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodchild Posted September 11, 2014 Share Posted September 11, 2014 There is a certain delicious irony in a - very sensible - question about the non-use of arrows asking people to point you in the right direction ... You've just brightened a rough afternoon, thank you! pstruik 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMILLER Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 ditto on getting the point on all this... Scott (aka " ) Malcolm Needs, Eoin, AMcCord and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eoin Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 On a bad day you might ask - "what is the point of it all?" -" " " " " " also " - "If I don't work, can I eat freash air?" Ah point me to the retirement home! You (et.al.) will probably respond - "Ditto, Ditto etc,". Gives the regulators something to find and something for us to argue with them about and use up time where they might find something that really mattered. Mind you, I like neat forms, worksheets - but repetition sometimes becomes senseless & allows points of entry for errors. CheersEoin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMCDCHI Posted September 15, 2014 Author Share Posted September 15, 2014 There is a certain delicious irony in a - very sensible - question about the non-use of arrows asking people to point you in the right direction ... Ha! I wish I could say I am that clever and I wrote it on purpose. I'm glad that there is agreement, even if no one can come up with a standard. I'm fairly new in my position and I think I still have a few people testing to see if I really stand behind what I am asking them to do (aka testing my boundaries!). Thanks for the input. pstruik 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John C. Staley Posted September 23, 2014 Share Posted September 23, 2014 (edited) My initial question is, why did you ask your techs to not use arrows for repeating information? In a previous life, much to my surprise, the Corporate Transfusion Service QA group actually were able to come up with a policy for the use of arrows / lines. I'm stretching my memory here but I believe it was acceptable as long as you documented on the first and last of the column and the line/arrow connected the two. I'm sure it was a little more in depth than that but that should be the general gist of it. Bottom line, I don't think there are any hard and fast rules against it out there but I'm pretty sure the general convention frowns on the practice. Edited September 23, 2014 by John C. Staley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tricore Posted September 24, 2014 Share Posted September 24, 2014 I too have been inspected when we used arrows as John described and the inspectors, inculding FDA, did not have problem. It makes for a much neater looking record. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auntie-D Posted September 25, 2014 Share Posted September 25, 2014 Our inspectors stated that using arrows or "" increases the risk of a check being missed or signed off in error. There was a rather embarrassing case where one member of staff "" along a column and stated that all checks had been done, including QC - they couldn't possibly have been done as it was a new batch and they hadn't been input on the analyser. The inspectors didn't find that remotely amusing. Nor the """ on competancies where the wrong date had been put in and """"d throughout - date trained was 1m AFTER date competant. Ooops Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMCDCHI Posted September 25, 2014 Author Share Posted September 25, 2014 I do allow a line to drop repeating information as long as it was written on the first and last lines. At my last job, we could not use arrows, just a line- I'm sure that part is just semantics. The techs are using arrows when only 2 lines of data are being recorded. This is still incomplete to me. Lines or arrows can still only be used for dates, initials, etc. NOT for reactions or interpretations. John C. Staley 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sko681 Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 So how do you think inspectors would feel about a the yearly review of SOPs being signed like that by the Medical Director? Just courious...not that we have that issue or anything..... tcoyle 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auntie-D Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 So how do you think inspectors would feel about a the yearly review of SOPs being signed like that by the Medical Director? Just courious...not that we have that issue or anything..... I'll tell you on Monday! Sko681 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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