So, according to my newspaper today, the reason that most of King Henry VIII's children were stillborn was because he was K+, and his wives were K- with anti-K.

Interesting, considering that only the second or subsequent baby would be affected, because they sure as Hell wouldn't have made an anti-K because of a blood transfusion in those days!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:trash::trash:

Hmmmm... I assume testing has been performed on something or is this report just pure speculation?

Hmmmm... I assume testing has been performed on something or is this report just pure speculation?

It must be pure and unadulterated speculation, considering Catherine of Aragon had FOUR pregnancies, all unsuccessful, before Mary Queen of Scots was born!

So, the first four foetuses all inherited the KEL1 gene from Henry, whilst Mary must have inherited either the KEL2 gene (or the K0 gene) from him (which means he must have been heterozygous for the K and k genes, or the K and K0 genes, otherwise it is pretty doubtful that Mary would have survived, if she, too, had inherited the K gene, and Henry VII was the very rare KK genotype).

In addition, Catherine or Aragon MUST have produced the anti-K during her first pregnancy, as a result of a foeto-maternal haemorrhage, as she would not have had a transfusion (if she had, you can bet it would have been recorded somewhere, as it would have been quite revolutionary), or she would have produced an anti-K-like antibody as the result of a bacterial infection (uniquely, this would have been IgG, rather than the, so far, reported IgM).

I rather think that both the researchers and the writer of the article in the newspaper should go back an do some very, very basic reading around the subject!!!!!!!!!!

:angered::angered:

I

I rather think that both the researchers and the writer of the article in the newspaper should go back an do some very, very basic reading around the subject!!!!!!!!!!

They are probably ex-lab staff who were made redundant with the latest round of hospital mergers, due to their poor knowledge .....There's still hope for some of us then?????

Malcolm,

Sorry to correct a Brit on this, but Mary Queen of Scots was not Henry VIII's daughter, Mary Tudor aka Bloody Mary was. Her mother was Katherine of Aragon.

I'd love to know how they have any clue as to what antigens the big man posessed!

BTW, is there a link to the article so we can all read it and get a good laugh?

:blahblah::blahblah:

Edited March 5, 201114 yr by EDibble

In the same paper (from a history journal), the authors also propose that Henry had 'McLeod syndrome'. This, they say, would account for the 'symptoms' of his 'later years'. Would this mean that an, apparently (if not genetically), K- father would have produced K+ foetuses, that were subsequently affected by anti-K? How unluck can you get!?

Malcolm,

Sorry to correct a Brit on this, but Mary Queen of Scots was not Henry VIII's daughter, Mary Tudor aka Bloody Mary was. Her mother was Katherine of Aragon.

I'd love to know how they have any clue as to what antigens the big man posessed!

BTW, is there a link to the article so we can all read it and get a good laugh?

:blahblah::blahblah:

Elizabeth, you are absolutely and utterly correct to put me right: put it down to me being appalled by the complete bunkum that was in this article, and going off the deep end whilst still being at boiling point!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It says in the article quotes a Dr Catrina Banks Whitley (one of the two "researchers", [the other being Kyra Kramer] -I use the term in its loosest sense) as saying,

"The blood condition (by this, she means being K+ - my bold font) may have been inherited by Elizabeth and Mary and could explain why both died childless.

We have identified the causal medical condition underlying Henry's reproductive problems and phychological deterioration.

the authors said in a study published in The Historical Journal."

So, it would appear that all the K+ people in the world are likely to change from being a witty and athletic youth to an overweight and unstable tyrant (by the way Rashmi, are you K+ yourself :devilish::haha:), which is a bit of a worry!

I mean - complete rubbish (and I am K- by the way - I was always an overweight and unstable tyrant - just ask my staff)!!!!!!!!!!

Anyway, I'll have a try on Google and see if I can get the link.

:pcproblem:pcproblem:pcproblem:pcproblem:pcproblem

In the same paper (from a history journal), the authors also propose that Henry had 'McLeod syndrome'. This, they say, would account for the 'symptoms' of his 'later years'. Would this mean that an, apparently (if not genetically), K- father would have produced K+ foetuses, that were subsequently affected by anti-K? How unluck can you get!?

Ah, sorry John, but there now has been an individual who had the 'McLeod syndrome' who si K+k+ (or, rather, Kwkw) - but, of course, unless he had the McLeod phenotype, without McLeod syndrome (CGD, etc), there is no way he would have made it to 40 anyway - he'd have been dead by the age of 15 at the very latest.

By the way Elizabeth, I can't provide a link (I'm an IT idiot), but the original article is

Banks Whitley C, Kramer K. A new explanation for the reproductive woes and midlife decline of Henry VIII. The Historical Journal 2010; 53 (04): 827 DOI.

Edited March 5, 201114 yr by Malcolm Needs

His name wasn't Henry, was it?

Cheeky so and so. As far as I know I am K-, but I suppose I could have typed incorrectly, that would certainly explain a lot!!

Is there a nice long letter making it's way to the Newspaper / authors?

Is there a nice long letter making it's way to the Newspaper / authors?

Strangely enough, YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:devilish::devilish:

Cheeky so and so. As far as I know I am K-, but I suppose I could have typed incorrectly, that would certainly explain a lot!!

Is there a nice long letter making it's way to the Newspaper / authors?

My email concerning my doubts has been received by the newpaper, but whether or not it will be published is another thing. Lets face it, the paper is usually only about 60 pages long!!!!!!!!!!

:blahblah::blahblah:

Thank you Malcolm. *Someone* with some scientific knowledge needs to address the issue.

:fingerscr:fingerscr:fingerscr

I often find it amazing to see what it takes for blood bankers to go into a feeding frenzy.

Have at 'em Malcolm. You have my full support.

Apparently this history journal has not heard of peer review or the authors' peers are lacking in blood serology knowledge themselves.

:haha:

If you were interested in reading the newspaper article... we had a few good laughs in our lab over it

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1363108/Researchers-suggest-rare-blood-disorder-responsible-Henry-VIIIs-rapid-decline-failure-father-children.html

One of the comments made by readers of the article brought up the fantastic point that Henry had illegitimate children with many women, including Mary Boleyn, Anne's elder sister. Albiet, this happened when he was younger. I still stick by the theory that an advanced infection with syphilis in his latter years caused the lack of children with his last few wives. As you all know, even with modern medicine, women miscarry every day. Henry and Katherine of Aragon had a very healthy son that died under one year of age, from a "fever". If there were some HDN issues, the baby wouldn't have lasted that long.

:blahblah::blahblah:

I know of an Maternal Fetal Specialist that was creating a slide deck on HDN and the information he found actually suggested that Catherine of Aragon was Rh-, she was of Spanish lineage, which we know the Basque region has the highest percentage of Rh negativity.

I know of an Maternal Fetal Specialist that was creating a slide deck on HDN and the information he found actually suggested that Catherine of Aragon was Rh-, she was of Spanish lineage, which we know the Basque region has the highest percentage of Rh negativity.

That's quite right. In fact, there is very good evidence that the "d (non)-antigen" (if you see what I mean!) actually originated from this area.

I'm not sure that I should do this (but he did say I could use them in my own lectures), but I am going to try to attach some 5 or so PowerPoint slides from a lecture given by Prof dave Anstee in about 2008 which explain this far better than could I.[ATTACH]473[/ATTACH]

BBTS08.ppt

Well I see the article was printed in the Daily Mail. What do you expect?? Malcolm, please tell me you don't regularly read the Daily Mail....(Sorry American readers - this won't make any sense to you, but the Daily Mail is a daily 'newspaper' that is, shall we say, well known for its very loose interpretation of what counts as news, and what counts as the truth) I go with the syphilis idea too, by the way. But then, does syphilis virus cause K- women to make an IgG anti-K??? No, I'm only joking.....

Well Anna, the Daily Mail does have a mean cryptic crossword that I love to try to do and fail miserably!!!!!!!!!!!

Well, I got my protest letter published in the Daily Mail!!!!!!!!!!

From Bighead of England!!!!!!

:bow::bow:

Well, I got my protest letter published in the Daily Mail!!!!!!!!!!

From Bighead of England!!!!!!

:bow::bow:

I see the Mail got a photo of you, to go with your letter. When did you shave off your moustache?

Cheek!

I haven't been that slim since I was 11! (for those of you who didn't see it, it was a photograph of the very young, very virile and very athletic Jonathan Rhys Meyers playing Henry VIII in "The Tudors".

Almost, but not quite, the same physiology as me!!!!!!!!!!

Hi Malcolm,

I can't find your protest letter online. Can you post a copy here please?

Hi Malcolm,

I can't find your protest letter online. Can you post a copy here please?

I'll try - I'm not very good (for that, read utterly useless) with IT!!!!!!

[ATTACH]475[/ATTACH]

Henry VIII.pdf